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`5:32:42`

If you just put it back on the shelf and say like, well, I gotta be diligent about this. I gotta line up a plan. You may run out and then there's no steam to keep going. — I have to ask about open source. What does it take to run a successful open source project? You…

`5:33:44`

is to treat it as a business, as though your users are customers, as though they have claims of legitimacy on your time and your attention and your direction. Because I faced this almost immediately with Ruby on Rails. As soon as it was released, there were a million peoples who had all sorts of opinions about…

`5:34:45`

You can contribute back if you want, but you can't tell me what to do or where to go or how to act. I'm not a vendor. This is a fundamental misconception that users of open source occasionally step into, because they're used to buying software from companies who really care about their business…

`5:35:46`

And I actually find that to be a beautiful thought that our comments increase in value when we all pursue our self-interest. Certainly in the realm of open source. This is also why I reject this notion that open source is in some sort of crisis. That there's a funding crisis that we have to…

`5:36:46`

And if you have some code that fits in with where I'm going with this, I would love to get those gifts back. And we can keep trading like that. I give you more gifts. You give me some of your gifts. Together, we pool all the gifts such that someone showing up brand new, just…

`5:37:46`

that you're building for you and everything else is a bonus, I think you have all the ingredients to go to distance. I think the people who burn out in open source is when they go in thinking, "I'm making all these gifts. I don't really need them myself, but I'm like hoping…

`5:38:47`

— And then they might walk away. I wish I had more insight into their mind state of the individual people that are running these projects, like if they're feeling sad or they need more money or they're like, it's just such a dark box. — It can be. — I mean of course there's some…

`5:39:47`

to taking care of this thing you've created. There is and not forgetting. I think, what I think what the open source creator is not seeing enough and I mean there's like, how many lives you're making better. There's certain pieces of software that I just quietly use a lot. And like they…

`5:40:49`

have been built off the back of it. And the expectations are very clear. I pay you this amount and I get this software. Open source, once you start mixing money into it, gets real muddy real fast. And a lot of it's just from those misaligned expectations. That if you feel like you're starving…

`5:41:49`

It is a good moment to bring up what I think is the, maybe one of the greatest open source projects ever, WordPress. And you spoke up in October 24 about some of the stuff that's been going on with WordPress's founder Matt Mullenweg in a blog post open source royalty and mad kings. It…

`5:42:52`

And I also think, now you might disagree with this, but from everything I've seen, WP Engine just gives me bad vibes. I think they're not the good guy in this. I don't like it. I understand the frustration. I understand all of it, but I don't think that excuses the behavior. There…

`5:43:52`

— First echo what you said about what a wonderful thing it is that WordPress exists. That there are not many projects in the open source world or in the world at large that has had as big of an impact on the internet as WordPress has. He deserves a ton of accolades for that work. So that…

`5:44:55`

And the principles are if you release something as open source, people are free to use it as they see fit. And they're free to donate code or resources or money back to the community as they see fit. You may disagree about whether they've done enough, whether they should do more, but you can…

`5:45:57`

I'm 100% allergic to that kind of interaction. And I think Matt, unfortunately, for whatever reason, got so wrapped up in what he was owed that he failed to realize what he was destroying. WordPress and Automatic already makes a ton of money. This is part of the wonder of WordPress. This is a project that…

`5:46:58`

I've never liked the GPL. I don't want your shitty code if you don't wanna give it to me. What am I gonna do with that? Some code dump that youve... I'm not on board with that part of Stallman's vision at all. I love the MIT license. To me that is…

`5:47:58`

to become such an integral part of commerce too. I mean, back when open source was initially finding its feet, it was at war with commercial software. Stallman is at war with commercial software and always has been. Bill Gates was in return at war with open source for the longest time. The open source licensees and…

`5:49:00`

I think there's one analysis that's all about kind of the practical outcomes of this, which I think are bad. There's also some an argument that's simply about ethics. This is not right. You can't just show up afterwards and demand something. This is not too dissimilar in my opinion, to the…

`5:50:01`

and then taking advantage of him in that way in his mind, just like interpersonal interaction. And then you get like interpersonally frustrated, that forget like the bigger picture ethics of it. It's like when a guy keeps saying, you know, promising you'll do something. And then you realize you wake up one day like…

`5:51:01`

But I also think there's some principles at stake here that ring much louder. I don't want Rails to suddenly be tainted by the fact that it's open source and whether companies can rely on it and build businesses on it. Because wait, maybe one day I'm gonna turn Matt and I'm…

`5:52:02`

but that's his prerogative. I continue to speak out when he's violating the spirit and ethics of open source, but I wish he would just accept that this was a really bad idea. He made a bad bet and I thought, I think he thought he'd just get away with it. That they'd…